Just as “health care” no longer means only check-ups, “marketing” no longer means only acquiring new patients. Join Shawn Gross, chief digital strategist and health care lead at White Rhino, as he discusses how hospital marketers benefit by shifting their focus to current patients through the next generation of mobile health experiences that have the potential to converge with clinical priorities including population health and value-based care. Learn how health IT can incorporate clinical input, where wearables fit in, and how apps and other digital health tools can advertise a practice without actually advertising.
Show notes
Air Date: March 2, 2016
Guest: Shawn Gross, chief digital strategist and healthcare lead at White Rhino
| 0:42 | Memorable quotes from recent guests |
| 3:32 | Introducing Shawn Gross |
| 6:07 | What functions are being requested from mobile health apps? |
| 12:18 | Shifting focus from new patients to current patients |
| 16:58 | What’s holding back marketing from embracing mobile health? |
| 21:10 | Content marketing on steroids |
| 25:55 | Necessity of clinical input and impact on wearables |
| 29:24 | Bonus question: If you could join a rock band or music artist for a day, who would it be? |
About Shawn Gross
Shawn Gross is the Chief Digital Strategist, Healthcare Practice Lead for White Rhino in Burlington, Massachusetts where he helps world-class health care organizations build content rich, patient-centric websites and inbound marketing programs. Shawn was previously the head of digital marketing at Tufts Medical Center, Floating Hospital for Children and Massachusetts General Hospital.
You can reach him on Twitter at @shawngross.
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Full transcription
Jared Johnson: Hello my friends and welcome again to the Health IT Marketer podcast, the podcast for the heartbeat of healthcare. I am your host Jared Johnson of Ultera Digital. This is the first and only podcast dedicated to the Health IT marketing community. Welcome aboard.
As always, I’m constantly asking you what are some topics you’d like to hear on future episodes. So tweet me those ideas and any feedback you’ve got about this program to @JaredPiano, that’s @JaredPiano.
All right, well it was handy during a recent HITSM or Health IT Social Media tweet chat, to have some memes handy with quotes from recent podcast episodes. I usually find a one or two sentence quote that stands out and I’ll put it on the meme just to represent the theme of that episode, and in this case, a couple of them fit perfectly in our conversation that was going on on that HITSM tweet chat about improving patient engagement, and when I look at the content that comes from this program, I’m still amazed.
Let me just read you some of the things that our recent guests have shared because this is really what it boils down to. Usually the hard part for me is narrowing down which piece or which quote or which line or which theme to put on a small little image, little graphic to represent this program. But there are things like what Dr. Justin Smith, aka @TheDocSmitty, said when he was talking about clinicians needing to engage with patients online.
You’ll recall when he boiled that down to, “Hey, if we’re not creating good information then how can we complain about the bad information that patients are bringing in?”
There was Christophe Trappe talking about how healthcare organizations don’t need to hide behind a lack of understanding about privacy and using HIPAA as a reason to not engage. He said, “I hope healthcare in general gets past the HIPAA excuse. People claim that HIPAA is the reason that we’re not sharing authentic stories.”
Then there was Aaron Watkins from Johns Hopkins about establishing common goals about how to break down silos and getting buy-in for digital marketing and digital health, and he said, “Hey, if you’ve said something 29 times, you’re just getting warmed up,” just talking about the need to be persistent in our communication.
There was e-patient Dave talking about next steps for patient engagement when he said, “Hey, it’s time for a social movement. We have enough evidence now. It’s time to get in action and create change.”
I also had Seattle Mama Doc, Dr. Wendy Sue Swanson who said, “Trust your instincts, use every resource you have. Go online and find as much as you can and then be as squeaky as you need to be to get the best healthcare you can.”
Finally, there was Nick Adkins, the co-founder of ReelDX, talking about just the current state of healthcare and this one got a lot of engagement in particular as well. He said, “The archaic days of old silos and domains and kingdoms and fiefdoms, those days are over. We all have to work together to pull this off.”
So like I said, I’m constantly amazed at the type of content. Look at the caliber of guests who are coming on this program. Our guests rock, and you, our listeners, you rock for engaging with this content and constantly challenging me to take things up to the next level or do something different to the program. So please keep that going. Let me know what I need to do to make this program even more valuable for you.
All right, well my guest this week on the program is Shawn Gross with White Rhino. He is the Chief Digital Strategist and healthcare practice lead there and I’m excited because I’ve been able to hear Shawn speak at HCIC, at the Healthcare Internet Conference the last couple of years, and so we’re going to be talking some digital health today.
So Shawn, welcome to the program. How are you today?
Shawn Gross: I’m good. Thanks Jared, I appreciate having me on the show and this is really exciting. Can’t wait to have a podcast session with you.
Jared Johnson: Yeah, you bet. I’ve mentioned to you earlier that I’ve had you on my list here for a while and have been meaning to connect with you. So I’m excited to talk some mobile and some digital health with you today. Would you like to start off telling our listeners, why don’t you give them a little bit more about your background, let them know where you are now and then kind of what you’re doing, what your role is at White Rhino?
Shawn Gross: You bet, yeah. I am now coming up on my, I think third year at White Rhino. I’m the agency’s, as Jared mentioned, the Chief Digital Strategist and also head of our healthcare practice. What that actually means is before I even got to White Rhino, I’ve been working as a healthcare digital marketer for a decade – seven years here in Boston at Mass General Hospital, and also three years at Tufts Medical Center as head of digital marketing.
So it just so happens and I don’t get out much. I don’t know much else about the world. I’m just stuck in healthcare digital marketing and that’s why I make a pretty good healthcare practice lead at White Rhino. Before all that healthcare marketing stuff, I worked in dot com startups, so a little bit in the tech space and the ecommerce space during the height of the dot com boom and of course bust, working at a bunch of ecommerce companies.
So I found myself working in healthcare and always brought, I think always brought to the work that I did along with my teams, a very consumer-focused slant to how that applies to our digital products website – re-designs, marketing campaigns, so always thinking about that patient experience, which of course is now a very huge buzzword and it’s certainly applying to all the work we do here at White Rhino. I also still keep in touch with my former colleagues there, even a client or two at places like Mass General and Tufts Medical Center, and patient experience is really important for them as well as I think it is for probably most of your listeners. I think today we are going to be talking about how digital marketing intersects the patient experience.
Jared Johnson: Yeah that’s exactly where we’re going with this and that’s one reason why I knew it would be very beneficial to get to connect with you here. In fact, that’s probably a good place to start off, kind of a good launching pad for us today because we want to talk about kind of what in general, what that current environment is for digital health, particularly for mobile apps and what functions are being requested, and if we start off just focusing on providers, hospitals but also private practices, what’s the environment these days and what are people looking for?
Shawn Gross: Yeah, it’s a great question and I think of healthcare and provider mobile app 1.0 as it was, okay, we’ve got this large institutional .org websites. Help us pre-package, or repackage is the right word, all of that content into a small form factor. What I’m seeing more and more, and I have a feeling even some of your listeners are prototyping this on their own, is instead of taking a giant hospital organization’s website and shrinking it down, it’s creating companion experiences, experiences that align with my healthcare experience and just having someone there. It can be literally a two or three screen mobile app, “someone”, a virtual assistant, to help get me through a procedure or maybe help in my recovery, or maybe help give me pointers and coach me for wellness and follow-on care.
This idea of extending the patient’s and physician’s relationship outside of the hospital walls, is there a more meaningful opportunity to use mobile apps and certainly push notifications comes to mind as a tactic in which you can nurture and build relationships, one-on-one relationships with your patients when you don’t get to see them too often, as a physician. Especially if you think of your primary care provider, you might see them once a year. So what kind of relationship can they have with you outside the hospital walls and how can that be packaged into small form factor?
So it’s thinking beyond just, okay, we’ve got this large website. Let’s shrink it down. That’s where now, I think of that world as hospital marketing web as 2.0 and we’re getting more and more requests like that with some of our healthcare clients.
Jared Johnson: And have you seen some of those functions implemented in any way that comes to mind? You mentioned a couple of provider settings that you’ve been able to actually be involved with firsthand. Are there some that you’ve seen these implemented, either effectively or not effectively?
Shawn Gross: Well, sure, yeah, that was actually one of your earlier questions and I don’t think I answered it. I think when it comes to requesting an appointment or helping me pay a bill or looking up condition and disease information, again this was all part of that first wave of what mobile apps could offer, and now in this new world, I am noticing it’s much more relationship building.
So it’s recognizing that I’ve just arrived to the hospital, maybe through the use of iBeacons, and geofencing, so extending the customer service notifications, knowing that I parked in the east garage and therefore I have to go through a few different buildings to get to my appointment. So way finding help, customer service, help in that regards, and also follow up care.
So if I have seen my dermatologist or my gastroenterologist, what are some of the things that they might want me to do post-procedure coaching me, to remind me to take my medication or, here’s an easy one, I used this in the HCIC example, just drinking water as your use case. Water can help with hundreds of ailments in the body and so your dermatologist might ask you to get into a better regimen around drinking 32 ounces of water every day. Well, wouldn’t you know if you fall behind your smart phone app can send you helpful push notifications?
So that applies to GI docs, derm docs, and so as a digital marketer, are there opportunities to sit with your clinical service lines who “often are your clients” and as you map out, this is the type of thing that White Rhino is helping them, as they map out their yearly marketing plans, shifting a little bit away from what was the norm of let’s do some search ads, let’s build some landing pages, let’s do some radio ads, think integrated, make an integrated campaign, well, so many healthcare marketers have been doing those things. What comes next?
It’s building these one-on-one relationship or companion apps, as we like to call them, could actually be the healthcare marketers’ new marketing program in a smartphone.
Jared Johnson: Well, right off, at least on top of my head, there are couple of different benefits to that. It sounds like one of those is the potential benefit for me as a patient and for my actual wellness, for my health because it’s not just a marketing campaign. It’s getting me somewhere into the door. But there’s this other benefit marketing-wise and you’re making this distinction between what we would consider what a digital marketer typically does from day-to-day in 2016 versus thinking of these types of actual apps and care companions as marketing itself.
I recall this philosophy from a prior guest actually, Gabe Weinberg. He wrote the book called Traction and one of the points in that book was figuring out among all of the different marketing tactics that there are out there, that more often than not, a lot of marketers don’t realize that many times it’s the channel that is being used less.
So you’re saying maybe we don’t have to run a search campaign and maybe we don’t have to spend as much at least on that as we think so because that’s such a traditional way to do it, but we might actually have a marketing advantage by using a tactic or channel that not everyone else is doing, and not just because the uniqueness of it but because that usually means that channel has not been saturated. So you might be the first one to offer one of those types of apps that you just mentioned.
Shawn Gross: Yeah, well said. This goes, and maybe even for our healthcare marketers means there’s a big shift and goes against maybe even last decade, at least when I was a healthcare marketer, everything that I was trained focus on, and that was the prospective patient. That was using the channels that you talk about that are so widely used to do everything in my power to get in New England, maybe even zeroing in on Southern New Hampshire, Eastern Mass and Northern Rhode Island.
For anyone who was just recently diagnosed with, I’ll just use as an example, cardiomyopathy, getting that person, maybe that’s a really small population and it’s even smaller if you think about the people who are savvy enough to take that diagnosis and Google it, stop and think about the larger audiences instead that a digital marketer could help influence when they start thinking about not prospective patients but instead current patients. It’s a much larger audience and it’s also reframing this idea of being a marketer to only people who are in need of sick care but really about offering care throughout the entire life of that patient’s hospital and healthcare utilization, along really their entire health continuum.
When you start thinking about it as that much broader spectrum, there’s a world of opportunities to market to those people and create experiences, and I like to use this term “advertising without the ads” because think about it, you and I are turned off as our listeners, so when we see advertising, usually we know to shut down than ignore what really feels like advertising. So instead, create moments and create experiences, extensions of the healthcare organization that I want to be a part of that instead nurtures me, informs me, coaches and provides oversight.
It’s going to feel like a digital service and it’s not going to feel like an advertisement at all. It just so happens to be that the marketers at the healthcare organization can be the ones typically to spearhead these types of initiatives.
Jared Johnson: Yeah, and you’ve a term for this that you coined at least a couple of times in your HCIC presentations and elsewhere as a feature of companion apps and other ways to describe that. Again, you want to go into a little bit more depth about that, what’s that concept, and you’ve mentioned how it’s different than marketing but how has that changed in the last couple of years and what does it take for it to succeed?
Shawn Gross: Sure. Well there’s two ways we go around it but we’re like kids in a candy store so depending on day it is, I forget how we sometimes phrase this. We have used terms like advertising without the ads but the truth is, this new way of thinking is something we call “addictive health,” and addictive in a good way. If you and your listeners Google “addictivehealth”, one word, don’t put any spaces in it, you’ll find a page on White Rhino’s website that actually takes you through the story of a patient.
This patient has been receiving care at a hospital and while there are these wonderful digital services that encapsulate and surround Mark, our fictitious patient story, they’re truly just marketing programs that the hospital has decided to invest in that provide uplift, increase patient satisfaction, delight, unexpected delighters even. People wouldn’t even expect these types of things from their hospitals, and they’re addictive in ways because they are services that you want to continue using. They’re services that you want to tell your friends and family about because they provided a great healthcare experience for you.
One of my clients at Mass General often times likes to kid around and says, “Well, when I enter work every day, I have to remember I’m leaving my digital life at the door because most hospitals don’t act and don’t think in digital ways.” So this idea of addictive health is a new way that marketers can be working with their IT teams, with their Chief Experience Officer teams or Patient Care Service teams and really infusing marketing principles into ways that I don’t think have been recently embraced by those types of departments.
Usually at most hospitals, marketing’s something that’s done for prospective patients and it’s more in the vein of advertising, but not nurturing the existing population that is already engaging with the hospital.
Jared Johnson: So there are other people out there kind of clambering for, “Hey, we need more mobile healthcare experiences,” and things like that and, “Hey, we need other ways to market our health services.” So this concept is obviously resonating out there and there are others enunciating it from different points of view I feel like.
So in your opinion, what will it take for this concept to kind of permeate our culture in healthcare? What’s holding it back right now?
Shawn Gross: Oh it’s a great question. Well, I don’t know. We should brainstorm on what the list could be but I think there’s fear. I think jumping off the cliff being the first. We work with the national hospital at White Rhino. We work with the healthcare transformation lab. It’s their innovation group inside the hospital’s walls responsible for using technology, and they have two different missions. One is to use technology to increase patient outcomes. That’s first and foremost, and the second is to use technology to increase patient experience.
So some of the things that you’ll find on that web page, that addictive health page are prototypes. They’re not products yet developed. I recently posted something on LinkedIn, a recent blog post on this very topic and a colleague who is a content developer, content writer, she has her own agency said, “This is a radical idea you’re talking about here, focusing and shifting the focus on current patients, not prospective patients. Who is going to be the first to try it?”
So I ask you the same thing because I don’t know if I have all the answers. Who is going to be the first mover in this field? I think already I see people like Mayo Clinic, certainly always being a pioneer, and they even have themselves their own mobile startup within the organization responsible for building out these little mini companion apps.
So I think what we tend to find in our market place is we like to follow the leader and Mayo will probably get a lot of press for some of the things they’re doing and it’s going to take a few other brave folks, but please add to it because I don’t necessarily have the answer. What are some of the things that you think would get hospital marketers to take notice of the shift, because I don’t always have the right answers.
Jared Johnson: Well, I think that’s a great . . . we should just brainstorm a list. We set up a Google Doc right now. We ought to do this because . . .
Shawn Gross: Right now, yes.
Jared Johnson: I think you’re right. I mean, this is a good start and this is the right direction. I look at the implementation of electronic medical records over the last few years and what it took for that for the majority, for a critical mass of hospitals and practices to say, “Okay, I’m not the first. I am still fearful. I know it’s going to cost me a lot but I know I’ve got to do this to get over that edge,” and there were lot of factors in that. But at the end of the day, there’s this thing called meaningful use. There’s some incentives. There’s some regulations. There’s some money tied to it. There were reasons that came down that they couldn’t control, but at the end of the day, those were incentivizing them to try this new thing.
So now we’re looking at, now we have this advent of population health and value-based care and what does that mean and what types of regulations and incentive programs, first off, we’ll see from the government, from legislation, that will drive a critical mass of providers to adopt those as well.
In my mind, it’s kind of same things. I think it’s got to hit them in the pocketbook for them to ultimately make a difference. Like you said, there are going to be the early adopters. There are going to be the Mayos and others who are going to do it no matter what, because innovation is part of what they do, or a main part of what they do. So they’re going to do it.
Shawn Gross: I think it will take leading edge CEOs to say that their marketing team’s right, so we’ve done this for the last decade. We focused on prospective patients. It’s time to introduce, not to stop, but maybe introduce some new marketing strategies on how to cultivate more meaningful relationships with our current patients knowing that population health is of huge priority.
So what can we offer? What services, and maybe they won’t be thought of immediately as digital services, but what offerings can we provide that very important audience, and getting marketing to be more involved is probably where this will start because I think for so long, starting 20 years ago or 30 years ago when marketing was in its infancy with healthcare organizations, it was help bringing in patients through the door, and I don’t think much has changed since then.
Jared Johnson: I think you’re right and as we see that type of integration of marketing then that is what’s going to help and that might come down to more content marketing, creating effective content that tells that story of what those benefits are. So I always like to throw in content marketing whenever I can.
Shawn Gross: Well, this is nothing but content marketing on steroids, Jared. You’re absolutely right. I mean, when I think of how to back into this as a digital marketer, I think to myself, well, if I’m creating inbound marketing strategies and I want to have my offers and typically the first wave of that world with things like infographics and ebooks and white papers, now it can be a pain level watch app, and I’m told to download that after I receive my care. Maybe I’ve had my hip knee replacement at Mass General Hospital or other hospital in the country and I’ve got a simple two or three screen app. Then I’m told to tap and report my pain level and it’s just a great way for me to be kept [inaudible 00:22:18] by my physician team and it’s also a great way for me to feel like I still have a connection back to my healthcare provider.
Small little intimate moments, little experiences, again, don’t have to be a lot of screens and a large development process. These can be small, two or three screen mobile apps or wearable apps. Another example that you’ll find on that addictive health story page is this idea of family connect. So how many times have we all been in the waiting room waiting to hear how our loved one’s procedure is going, and also knowing that there’s this large family outside of just the folks who made it that day to the waiting room. There’s aunts and uncles who live on the West Coast, maybe there’s relatives and family spread out throughout the country. Wouldn’t it be great if using the timestamp systems of the hospital’s OR room?
I could get push notifications sent to this mini private social network. It doesn’t sound like marketing at all but again, it’s an experience created by the hospital because they know that their patients and the family members of the patients’ value digital experience. Again, going back to that statement that my client likes to say, leaving her digital life at the doorsteps of her employer every day, well, that would change in a really big way for the healthcare organization who wants to roll out something like family connect.
So again, it doesn’t have to feel like advertising. It could be fun, addictive and something you want to share with friends.
Jared Johnson: Well, I think we’re onto something. I think we can just, between us we can take this on and get the whole world set up and transform healthcare. There we go.
Shawn Gross: So much of the stuff that we do at White Rhino, it’s baby steps. We, and I think a lot of agencies don’t think this is all too different, will help their hospital clients through things like website redesigns or content development or integrated campaigns. It’s taking it to the next level. It’s now some of our healthcare clients saying, “Wow!” Well, we’ve got a great stable of that kind of work that we’ve done together and maybe there are healthcare marketers listening to this who will feel the same way.
They have an agency. They have done these wonderful things over the last five, six, seven, or maybe ten years, and now it’s an opportunity to turn their attention to new breakthrough campaigns, things that don’t have to be search ads, print ads, and a landing page. Maybe it’s a challenge to the next healthcare marketer who is listening to this podcast to say, let your next marketing program be more of an addictive health campaign or an addictive health type of small miniaturized app experience that can again, connect with your current patient audiences and not prospective ones.
So I saw the stat and it’s on that article I posted to LinkedIn that talked about just 18% of a practice’s budget that was spent on marketing communications, just 18% of that budget went to actually drive 91% of all new patient acquisition, and I’m forgetting the stat here. I think I’m butchering it in this moment but that 18% was actually focused on current patients. So just to think of what a small percentage of their budget was focused on current patients but that led to 90% of new business, whereas the other, maybe it was 70% or 80%, was actually focused on advertising and it returned less than 1% of new business.
So there’s something on and I think more research in the marketplace will help healthcare marketers feel like they’re not making a giant leap of faith but there’s actually some data behind focusing your marketing efforts on current patients has this halo effect, has this trickledown effect to influence new business, and maybe it’s data or some report that Forrester has to write or the advisory board that will actually get people to take notice.
Jared Johnson: So I’m curious what you think and how important that is to have clinical input while developing some of these apps that you’ve talked about, and then let’s bring wearables into that also in terms of what will it take for wearables that have some significant meaningful value in healthcare.
Shawn Gross: Yeah it’s a great question and I actually think that’s the most important one out of all this because I do see a lot of consumer health apps. You can go to the App Store, go to the health section and you’re going to see there’s thousands and thousands of these apps that we’re talking about here today. So the logical question to be asking is, well wait a minute, if there isn’t a name branded yet player, I mean sure there’s MyFitnessPal, but how come this isn’t working the way I seem to be envisioning it along with my White Rhino app here?
Well, that’s because it’s not coming from inside the hospital walls and I think it’s crucial that any healthcare marketer or any healthcare agency listening to this podcast remember that for credibility, for sort of the litmus test of whether this is going to work or not, it must be prototyped and even developed in collaboration with clinical practices because they’re on the frontlines. They know the patient experience best and they also know the pains.
So I think the answer to your question is two-fold. So whether it’s smartphone apps or wearables, I would apply the same type of thinking, and that’s one, you have to use the physician group to help thorough it out, is this relatable? Is this something that my patients even have a pain around. The second thing is, not to just think as a consumer marketer and create apps that, again, if you go into the App Store you see what’s already there.
So many miss the mark because they were, and maybe I’m going to sound like I’m speaking out of both sides but I’m not, they were too consumer focused in the sense that they didn’t do their market research and started with patients first as their priority audience when trying to figure out if this app was going to meet the mark.
So what do I mean by that? It means well, if you’re a healthcare marketer, go talk to the pulmonology team when you create the marketing plan and actually get clear on what pains their patients have with follow up care, or your cancer center to talk about the types of questions new patients and current patients are asking around how to live with their cancer diagnosis, health and wellness and support tips? What are the types a companion app could actually quell or solve some of the challenges or the dilemmas that they’re facing in their life after being diagnosed with certain ailments and conditions?
Only then do I think an app that does the things that we’re talking about here, creating addictive experiences, comes to life. I don’t think it can be done without involving the clinical teams and through the clinical teams, you’d find that you also prototype with real, live patients. So I think to sit back and just treat this as [inaudible 00:28:59] go on sort of gut instinct and see what others have done in the marketplace and try to follow, I don’t think is going to create the type of work that we’re imagining at White Rhino with the things that you and I are discussing here today. It’s got to really come from inside the walls of a hospital, and who better to do that than a healthcare marketer who only has to walk down the hall or into the next building, to work with their clinicians.
Jared Johnson: I always want to make sure I leave enough time for our bonus question because we get some fun responses on this one and it is, if you could join any rock band or a music artist for a day, who would that be?
Shawn Gross: Oh my goodness. Yeah, like what have people even responded in the past, I don’t want to hear. I was trying to be funny and the first thing that came to my mind was The Monkees but I’ll be a little bit more pragmatic about it. Same genre or same time period, maybe The Beatles. It seems like very epic. I have a lot to learn about the early days of pop music. So if you’re shadowing them, mirroring them, do I get to play an instrument in this scenario?
Jared Johnson: It’s either one, if you want to hangout, if you want to participate, if you want to join the band.
Shawn Gross: Oh I think just to shadow and see what it would be like to be as part of that movement. Maybe similar to the type of healthcare movement we’re talking about here, just a revolution and new thinking. It seems to me that when the Beatles came to America, from everything I’ve learned or watched, it was truly a revolutionary time.
Jared Johnson: Well, nice tie back to our theme of the program today. Well done. Well done. Well, Shawn, you want to let everyone know if they want to reach you, how they can do that?
Shawn Gross: Absolutely. You can Google White Rhino and our website hopefully, fingers crossed, will come up towards the top of those search results, or if you got excited about this topic of addictive health, Google addictivehealth, all one word and that will also come up to the top of Google search results.
Also easy ways to find myself, you’ll see that me and my staff are publishing blog posts or if you just really want a simple way, it’s just S-H-A-W-N, shawn@whiterhino.com. Email always works great but the other ways are a little bit more adventuresome and you’ll find some really great content standing in your way. So at that point you won’t even need to contact me. You’ll just be so enthralled, hopefully, with all the content you’re reading. So that’s a long-winded way of saying use Google as your front door.
Jared Johnson: Well, thanks for joining the program. Shawn, good luck with all that you’re doing and hope to talk to you again soon.
Well, that’s the wrap for our program this week. Let me know again what you think about this week’s program and reach out to me on Twitter at @JaredPiano. You can leave a review and subscribe on iTunes. We’re now on Stitcher Radio, so you can listen to us there. You can listen to us on Podbean, or on your other favorite podcasting app.
Until next time, I’m Jared Johnson and you’ve been listening to the Health IT Marketer podcast. This program is sponsored by Ultera Digital Marketing Consulting, take your content further. For a full archive, go to healthitmarketer.com, that’s HealthITMarketer.com. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in and I’ll talk to you next week.